Talk:Double negative

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French last example incorrect[edit]

This has evolved further, so that in French colloquial speech, ne is often left out, leaving pas to serve as the sole negating element: "Je sais pas" or "sais pas" mean "I don't know."

This is incorrect. "Je sais pas" is a langage mistake, not a colloquialism. I realize that the frontier between familiar language and mistakes is a gray zone, but "je sais pas" would be tagged as "incorrect language" (or "lazy language") and not familair. The colloquialism would be "Je n'sais pas", the first negation being present. It is equivalent to "I dunno" in English. I will remove the quoted section if there are no comments. Wsw70 (talk) 16:15, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Done Wsw70 (talk) 15:34, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
Well, no. Colloquial French is what the French happen to say; and, believe me, this is Je sais pas (in this case, actually, usually "j'ais pas" or even "j'pas"). Leaving out the "ne" is no more unusual in spoken French than, in fact, using "dunno" for "don't know" in English (good example) or "gonna" for the future tense "going to" in American.--2001:A61:2085:9F01:FC0A:40A:BB4E:684B (talk) 23:07, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
I disagree. People say or write all kind of things and they do not automatically become "colloqualisms". "T'as vu se film?" is incorrect not because of the "t'as vu" but because of the "se". The "se/ce" or "é/er" mistake is extremely frequent - whcih does not make it a smaller mistake. You mention "J'ais pas" as being used for "Je ne sais pas"? Where? My 47 years of being French do not agree. I have never heard "J'pas". "J'ai pas" could possibly mean "I do not have" (still incorrectly, though, but in widespread use) Wsw70 (talk) 10:41, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
I quite agree that "se" for "ce" is a mistake, and not a colloquialism. Why? because the s-sound in se and the c sound in ce actually are the same sound. Failure to write down the spoken thing as it ought to be written is simply a mistake; writing down something as it is spoken may be a colloquialism, especially if the thing is in so widespread use as "je sais pas" (as you yourself say on a related issue). It would be a clear mistake to write "je ne saie pa" or what not, even with the ne.
As for "j'ais pas", I heard something in between a "j'ais pas" and a "je pas" with markedly spoken schwa sound (unlike all the other schwas which tend to fall away in colloquial language even where they don't in standard French) in the department of Moselle and it definitely was an abbreviation for "je ne sais pas". "J'pas" was less frequent and more colloquial.-- 2001:A61:20CD:AA01:B96C:E846:2EEF:3AC9 (talk) 17:00, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
(Note by the same: Why I wrote "j'ais", not "j'ai", is simply because we learnt in school that what is written "j'ai" without an -s (or an -e for e.g. the subjunctive) is, in standard French, spoken "jé" as opposed to "jè". (Of course, most French say "jè" though.)--2001:A61:260D:6E01:FD44:66FE:20FD:AB22 (talk) 19:51, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
"This is incorrect. "Je sais pas" is a langage mistake, not a colloquialism" Exactly, this article is full of mistakes from people who are not fluent in the languages studied here. " "T'as vu se film?" is incorrect not because of the "t'as vu" but because of the "se". "
Really, stop saying nonsense, if you are not a fluent speaker, or a French teacher, don't spread absurdities. Check in grammar books, or Projet Voltaire, on the Académie Française site, or in any dictionaries before spreading errors here. If you write nite in English, do you think it's correct? The French negation, to be proprer, and not colloquial, still requires the "ne", make some researches if you don't know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 (talkcontribs) 22:36, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Please remove unsourced interpretations[edit]

I don't believe "ne pas" is a double negation, it is a simple negation. The simple negation in French occurs with 2 particles. When the author says that it occurs in Romance languages, that's totally wrong, the double-particle French negation (and not double negation) is not present in Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, etc... The sources for this are "See the article regarding Romance languages explaining this form of double negation."

It is not a source!!! The author confuses the French negation, and the double negation, and doesn't give any sources! "French is the only Romance language to use double negation for its standard negation." ==> That's true

It's really ambiguous to use French to explain the difference between the English double negation and Romance languages, as French seems to have a double negation when it's not, this article is really explained poorly, the examples are not good. I added that "pas" only is not grammatical or proper, as your article seems to say it's normal and modern French and doesn't explain when. It's confusing for people who want to learn the language and read your article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 (talkcontribs) 22:26, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Slavic languages[edit]

I don't agree with what the article says about Russian and other Slavic languages. It says that multiple negatives affirm each other. That is just wrong. Double negatives - that is, double negative particle "не"/"ne" - cancel each other so that the sentence with double "ne" becomes positive. Examples: "не мог не прийти" ("ne mog ne pri'ti", lit. "could not not come") = had to come; "нельзя не сознаться" ("nel'zya ne soznat'sya", lit. "not possible to not confess") = "must confess", etc etc. Such double negatives are not infrequent.

The examples used in the article, such as "я ничего не знаю" ("ya nichevo ne znayu" - "I know nothing") and others are not double negatives, because they have only one negation particle "не"/"ne". The other parts of these examples use a different particle - "ни"/"ni" - which is not a negation particle by itself, it is just an auxiliary particle used in negative sentences, therefore it doesn't create "double negation" (in which case the negatives would cancel each other and the sentence would become positive, like in the examples above). TheInevitable (talk) 12:23, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

That would be an improvement to the article, but we need a citation and plausible examples of sentence clauses using the particles you have identified, please. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 16:58, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
I tried. Maybe someone else can provide true double negative examples (where two negatives cancel each other) in other Slavic languages. TheInevitable (talk) 16:00, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Andalusian[edit]

I don't know how to work it into the article, but it has been brought to my attention that in Andalusian Spanish ¡No ni na'!, despite literally meaning "No nor nothing" is an emphatic "Yes!". --Error (talk) 12:19, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

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